Thursday, May 19, 2005

Use of proper language

On 15a, we have the following case:

ואידך, הלל אומר: מלא הין מים שאובים פוסלים את המקוה. שחייב אדם לומר בלשון רבו. שמאי אומר: תשעה קבין, וחכמים אומרים: לא כדברי זה ולא כדברי זה, עד שבאו שני גרדיים משער האשפה שבירושלים, והעידו משום שמעיה ואבטליון ששלשה לוגין מים שאובין פוסלים את המקוה, וקיימו חכמים את דבריהם.

The second case where הלל ושמאי disagree is regarding how much drawn water renders the מקוה unfit.

If we look at the מחלוקת, we see that they mention two different measurements, [1]הין and קב. As we continue with this piece, we see that שמעיה ואבטליון, הלל ושמאי’s teachers, also used the term לוגין. Therefore, the סתם (see bold) needs to insert the line that a person is obligated to speak in the language of his Rabbi. While הלל was using the same measurement system, it would therefore appear שמאי didn’t. However, the adage is all nice and good, but is its placement appropriate? Wouldn’t it be better at the end of the discussion, as perhaps a גופא type statement?

Ideas as to why this is needed here in this סוגיא and also as to why it is not written at the end but written right after הלל’s teaching?

[1] According to רש"י, a הין is 12 לוג.


At Thursday, 19 May, 2005, Blogger Mar Gavriel said...

a) While the statement אלא שחייב אדם לומר בלשון רבו is of course סתם, in the sense of redactive and anonymous material, it is certainly not Stammaitic in the sense that R. Halivni et al. use the term. After all, the sentence אלא שחייב אדם לומר בלשון רבו is Tannaitic, for it appears in the Mishna עדֻיות (`Edhuyyois 1:3).

b) Don't be so sure that both Hillel and Shammai (or either of them) studied with Shema`ya and Avtalyon. I assume that you derived this factoid from the Chain of Tradition in Tractate אבות (Ovois), but I don't know how reliable that document is.

c) There is no C, because איך ווייס נישט וואָס איז סי.

At Thursday, 19 May, 2005, Blogger Bryan said...

Well, based on B, it would make even more sense for the editorial comment in this sugya. The goal of the redactor would be to make it look like Hillel is a student of Shema'ya and Avtalyon.


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